A jolly antidote to yesterday’s dark deeds and Jon quips “I’m far too southern to sing this really but who cares,” attributing his source to The Watersons. Particularly Mike Waterson who leads on their recording, which can be found on the For Pence And Spicy Ale album. The sleeve notes for that offer this. Martin Carthy and Norma Waterson heard a man named Joe Udal sing this at a shepherd’s meet in the Lake District in 1974, and took a fancy to it. As well they might. Here’s a Mudcat thread for those seeking more information.
Another quick addition – I should probably have given you this link for Mainly Norfolk two days ago as then you are free to explore Reinhard’s fantastic resource at will. It’s been built over many years and was of huge benefit while researching and writing these notes.
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Jon attributes his source to Martin Carthy, who recorded it on his album Landfall released in 1972. A wiki entry notes, “This is Carthy at his simplest — no overdubs, no vocal gymnastics and no syncopation.” Jon here, by contrast, uses concertina accompaniment again. The usual Mudcat information is available here and this link is also quite interesting. We have been contacted by EFDSS who are also very keen to support this project and site and I will start to add links to their library as they are provided.
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After a bit of a ramble yesterday I thought I’d keep it brief today. Besides I think Jon’s comment says it all… “One of the great ballads in my view. I think we all know couples who seem to enjoy making each other miserable, but these two take it to a whole other level. The ‘rose and briar’ is one of the most enduring images to have come out of folk song.” Jon credits Phoebe Smith as his source and you’ll find a nice tribute to her here. The fact that she settled in Suffolk is probably what places this story in Cambridge, as location seems to be as the singer requires rather than permanently fixed. This Mudcat thread may or may not make things clearer. As a further note, this is a Child Ballad, referring to songs collected by Francis Child and therefore from an oral and probably Scottish source. As Jon explains “They may also need a bit of gentle modernisation/ Anglicisation for the purposes of the modern (Southern) folk singer.”
I said I wasn’t going to do this, but then again… It would take a few weeks of this before Reinhard and I got coordinated. I was a bit slow to cotton on to what a fantastic resource Mainly Norfolk was and much as I admire the Mudcatters and their incredible knowledge, it’s much more concise. I started sending Reinhard the schedules in advance to allow hiim to prepare and he’s added some great detail and today’s post is typical so have a look here.
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There’s a really nice description in the Anne Briggs Collection CD booklet that suggests, “It’s one of those pieces whose verses seem to have floated in from half-a- dozen other songs.” There are certainly many songs with similar texts as you’ll see in this Mudcat thread, where this song’s English or Irish origins are also open to debate. Anyway, I mention Anne Briggs as she is Jon’s source and she in turn credits a BBC archive recording of Irish traveler Mary Doran, which probably came to her via A.L.Lloyd. Oddly enough this muddy provenance is echoed in the rock world, as a track called Black Mountain Side appeared on the first Led Zeppelin album. It’s an acoustic interlude amongst the heavy rockin’ that almost led to a law suit. Anne seemingly had introduced Bert Jansch to the song and he duly arranged a guitar accompaniment in his own fluid finger style, which appeared on his 1966 Jack Orion album. Al Stewart, attended many a Jansch’s gig around this time and learned a version of the song, but mistook the guitar tuning for DADGAD, rather than Bert’s Drop D. He in turn claims to have taught Page, employed as producer of Stewart’s debut album, this version, which certainly chimes with the tuning that Jimmie used on Zep 1. For his part Jimmie Page claims inspiration directly from hearing Anne Briggs and any copyright infringement was further muddied by the ‘Trad. Arr.’ status anyway. I hope you don’t think I’m getting too far off-piste here, but having read lots of Mudcat debate, I found it amusing to bring this particular confusion up to date. And I nearly forgot, Jon offered this… “I once sung this for an Open University docu-drama wearing C18th costume and standing in the middle of a small river. Strange but true. Not on Youtube (fortunately).” Now that I’d like to see!
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Picking this song up from Roy Harris (the East Midlander rather than the American composer!!), Jon once again adds a concertina to this song which, as he points out is, “A sentiment that is unlikely to be anything other than current and timeless unfortunately.” Roy was born in 1933 and did National service after WWII as well as serving in the RAF in the 50s. You can find Roy’s version on the Fellside CD The Rambling Soldier, where it’s described as a “heartfelt longing for peace.” His affinity is clearly with the rank and file experience down the ages and he highlights the natural ambivalence present in their songs and stories. The notes in the CD point to the first line of the chorus “Oh, I wish that the wars were all over,” as appearing on many popular prints in the late 18th Century. The reference to Flanders dates this either to the Seven Years War of 1756-63 or to a later conflict in 1793. There’s an interesting Mudcat thread here that has a few alternatives lyrically, although your have to scroll down the thread to get to version Jon is singing.
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